In this interview with Dr. Mark Gerard Murphy, we explore his central focus in The Direction of Desire, which involves the question of language in the formation of the subject, as well as the relation between psychoanalysis and theology through the lens of Lacan and John of the Cross as informing spiritual direction. Dr. Murphy rejects the existentialist foundations for spirituality (what he calls “experientialism”) as well as the commodification of spirituality in the neoliberal age. In contrast he seeks to emphasize the importance of the negativity of language and encourages pastoral theology to engage more directly with the work of Lacan to avoid an overly positivist approach to spiritual direction.