In this conversation, Todd McGowan and I discuss his new book, The Racist Fantasy. First, this work is situated in the context of McGowan's recent books: Emancipation After Hegel, Universality and Identity Politics, and Enjoyment Left and Right; and second in the context of McGowan's thesis on fantasy structure. McGowan's idea here is that the obstacle to our desire fuels the libidinal/fantasmatic narrative, and thus we enjoy, not achieving the goal, but the obstacle itself. Furthermore, McGowan theorises that the racial other can become an obstacle in the libidinal/fantasmatic narrative, and that this makes racism difficult to eradicate through education and legislation alone. Here ultimately, he calls for deeper reflexivity and attention to the way we enjoy, ultimately so that we can engage more truthfully and responsibly in the collective struggle for emancipation.